That is funny as hell, but the car is still a step in the right direction.

Agreed. I like the notion of using less fossil fuels for a variety of reasons. That, and as I mentioned in my other post, I really dig the 100% of torque at 0 RPM thing. I can't wait until someone comes out with an electric car that is rear or all wheel drive. That'll be fun to pitch around corners sideways in a cloud of tire smoke.

Guys buy up all these electric cars so I can have all your oil for my gas guzzlers

if anthing this would be a step in the right direction. But wait all the greenies are too lazy to work this hard to save the oil and enviroment.


http://www.humancar.com/

Anything to move from fossil fuels is good thing. The work BMW is doing with Hydrogen is a step in the right direction. Little things that manufactures adding like engines shutting off at stop lights, engines that switch from 8 cylinders to 4, full size V8 trucks getting 20 mpg, and Ecoboost technology are all steps in the right direction. Any progress is better than no progress. It is exciting to see manufacturers raising the bar. Ford, Dodge, and Chevy trucks have fought for decades on how long they last, how much they pull, how much they haul, etc and all have improved because of competition. It is a step in the right direction to have them competing on MPG.

I don't own a Prius or a Volt, but at least companies are trying to move alternative fuel technology forward, that is a step in the right direction.

Having already thrown my hat in the ring with Chad, I'll bite with the understanding that I don't expect any of us will change our opinions. I always enjoy a friendly debate, though. I see electric cars having a number of benefits. First, energy independence is a serious national security issue. We import the majority of our oil, most of which comes from parts of the world that don't have our best interests at heart. Giving our money to them seems crazy. Basing our economy on a substance that we purchase from countries like Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia is even crazier. Any long term drop in our imported oil supply would have a negative effect on the economy (think oil embargo of 1973). Giving unfriendly nations the ability to impact us in that way seems dumb. Oil is also expensive, and composes 30-50% of our trade deficit depending on the year. Being a fiscal conservative and borderline libertarian, this drives me nuts. Protecting our supply lines also costs money. RAND recently estimated "The United States might be able to save an amount equal to between 12 and 15 percent of the fiscal year 2008 U.S. defense budget if all concerns for securing oil from the Persian Gulf were to disappear." I seriously doubt we'd be as involved in middle eastern politics if we didn't need to buy their oil. On top of that, petroleum based oil is a limited resource and we will eventually run out. This may not happen for a long time, but operating our economy in a way that better realizes this makes sense to me.

Second, electric cars are more environmentally friendly (I can already hear you guys rolling your eyes). The CO2/global warming issue aside, particulates create issues for heart and lung health and are a pretty ugly carcinogen. These issues are expensive to treat and have a nasty habit of killing people. While industry and power generation are much larger sources of this stuff, mobile emissions are a significant chunk. Even though a massive portion of our power is coal based (about 85% for my power supplier) it's still cleaner than tailpipe emissions, in part due to simple economy of scale. It's less expensive to clean up the emissions at one big site than to put increasingly complex emissions controls on every single car out there. Finally, you can put power plants out where people don’t live and keep the emissions away from population centers.

Third, alternative fuels, at least in their current state, are a lousy option. I don't count diesel as an alternative fuel and think we're nuts for not looking more seriously. My first car was a 1980 VW Rabbit diesel that got about 50 mpg. Ethanol takes a huge amount of oil to produce, since all the tractors, combines, etc use lots of oil and refining the corn into fuel also takes energy. Making a gallon of ethanol takes about a gallon of petroleum fuel. Also, corn-based ethanol production has driven up food prices. Hopefully with increases in our ability to produce cellulosic ethanol or ethanol from non-food sources will make ethanol a better option in the long run.

Finally, electrics are fun. If you think the torque from a big diesel is a good time, check out an electric. Also, I really like that they’re quiet. Part of what I love about mountain biking over motorcycles is that I can hear what is going on around me. I ride and 4 wheel in part to enjoy the natural world and if I could afford to I’d convert my Bronco to just about anything that let me hear it, too.

Rob, I agree with you that none of the alternatives to oil are good ones, and that the power grid would be badly stressed if we all went out and bought electrics right now. Range is an issue that I think will be addressed by ongoing advances in battery technology. The environmental costs of producing the batteries is also a big deal that needs to be addressed somehow, although I doubt it is that much worse than the environmental costs of manufacturing an engine. If nothing else, making cars that are smaller and lighter will make a big difference. My 1988 Honda CRX got about 38 mpg without a bunch of overcomplicated hybrid crap on it (electrics are relatively simple, too). Makes’em more fun to drive, as well. The Lotus Esprit and Caterham Super 7 are really high on my list of vehicular lust objects for this reason.I don’t know what the perfect solution is, and I suspect it’ll be a combination of things. All of them will take time to develop and none of them are perfect. My ideal solution is a bunch of cheap solar panels on the roof of my home (the sun is more dependable than any human being) and a really fast electric car with a 250 mile range. It won’t happen any time soon, but like Chad, I’ll take whatever steps get us moving away from the current system.

The electric technology will come down in price as people buy more electric/hybrid cars. General Electric ordered 12,000 Volts for employee company cars. The number of offerings, range, quality, etc. will also improve just as they have with gas and diesel engines. The government is offering a subsidy to get the first dominoe to fall. As for enlightening anyone on how "this is a step in the right direction", I am not sure how exploring new technology and alternatives are a step backward. The government sponsoring new technology and research is nothing new.

Am I buying a Volt? No. My next SUV will be the next version (2014?) of the Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon V8 and likely the Hybrid version. The great thing about the Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf, Tesla Roaster, Ford Fussion Hybrid, Toyota Prius, VW TDI, BMW 335d, BMW Hydrogen 7, etc. is that the open market will decide what technology they want to buy. It is 'exciting' to have more options and can buy what ever you want.

Actually the technology is being developed from programs through cordless power tools and the like, believe it or not. Ford, Honda and several other manufacturing companies have a large interest in the cordless power tool companies. The manufacturing research is constantly being investigated through the programs behind the suppliers. I know this from an electrical engineer that was involved in that system before he decided being an instructor was more fun.


My issue is that the electric hybrids cause more damage to the environment than my old pickup getting 10 MPG for ten years.

The thing that pisses me off about the front brakes missing on them Volts is the fact the Dealership's techs. didn't catch the front brakes missing on their pre-delivery inspections before putting them on the lot. How in the hell does an experienced technician drive a brand new car and not notice that? I know, they didn't do the work they were paid to do. Or perhaps its the cheap greedy service managers not hiring experienced technicians for work? I think GM should back-charge all of them for they money paid for the inspections they didn't perform.

The prius alone is shipped all over the world to various plants before final assembly. The plant that manufactures the batteries for it in Canada is used by NASA for lunar practice because of the degradation from the nickel content for that battery. Then the fuel burned to ship to Europe, India, China...

GE Employees can drive anything they want, but the Volt is the vehicle that the company will pay for. I would drive a UPS truck if my work paid for it.

Both state and federal governments under the administration of both parties have subsidized the Prius and all other hybrids. There was a multi-thousand dollar low emissions tax credit available for the purchase of hybrids for a long time in the early and mid-2000s. In many states low emissions vehicles are allowed to drive in carpool lanes with only one person in the car. Bush was also central in the passage of legislation providing billions in loans and other funds to advance electric vehicles.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... ctric-car/
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/presid ... hese-days/

At this point we're probably talking more about our basic beliefs about the role of government than electric cars in particular. I don't have a problem with the government underwriting research into this stuff, even if it means giving money to private corporations (who are probably better equipped to look at this stuff anyway). Governments have a long and often successful history moving beneficial technologies into civilian markets-ever used velcro or superglue? DARPA and other military research groups have been looking at electric and hybrid propulsion systems for years. They're hoping to use them in tanks and other military vehicles. It saves fuel, which is really expensive to transport to middle east, and reduces the vehicle's thermal profile, making it harder to track and less vulnerable to heat seeking attacks. Spending money to explore all of our options around potentially beneficial technologies makes sense to me, even if the current setup turns out to be the best way to do things. I fully agree that hybrids aren't as green as everyone thinks and am deeply frustrated by Toyota's success in marketing them an environment savers. I do think that electrification of vehicles could be beneficial with improvements in technology and it's worthwhile to explore them as an option. Battery technology is already better in terms of environmental impact as lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries are an improvement over the nickel metal hydride batteries currently used in the Prius (Toyota is also switching to Li-ion batteries for 2012). Regarding GM and their policy around fleet vehicles, that's pretty standard practice. My mom had a company vehicle when she was a drug rep for a big pharmaceutical company and they would pay for the vehicle they picked, not for whatever else she wanted to drive.

At the end of the day I'm happy to agree to disagree, but am enjoying the debate.

The First Smart car I saw was a diesel in Canada. Diesel is a great fuel, at least for the interim. It takes less to refine than gas, produces better fuel economy and is cleaner for the environment. When you add a turbo, which uses otherwise wasted energy, you have something that is fuel efficient and powerful. WAKE THE HELL UP EPA!

I too don't know what the answer is and while I all about exploring new options so we can be "fuel independent", nothing will succeed unless it can match what we have already in terms of cost of production, fuel economy and range. If it can't meet that, then back to the drawing board.

Should we start on CFL bulb? LOL!

Been watching this for a while and just found a laugh....why does one of the people defending hybrids and electric cars(erm Justin ) have a signature that says "I park on hybrids"??

I hate hybrids. I think they're over-complicated, over-hyped and a big fat lie that environmentalists have swallowed whole. The idea of carrying around 2 complete power trains seems inefficient and idiotic. They've been a good catalyst for further development of battery technology in vehicle applications, but that's about the only thing I like about them. Toyota (and other manufacturers who have followed in their footsteps) have taken total advantage of the average consumer's inability to look at environmental cost of a vehicle over the total lifespan (including construction and recycling costs). Most people also don't get that the main benefits of hybrids are also in city driving which isn't what most Americans spend their time doing. I'm hoping that further development of cars like Nissan's Leaf will make hybrids obsolete. In the meantime, I'd really like to see increased use of clean diesels and de-fatification of cars as ways to improve mileage without a bunch of heavy crap that I can't fix with a 1/2 inch (or 13mm, whatever) wrench.

Wind energy technology is booming right now. We have a huge wind program at the college I am attending. A friend of mine that ended up closing his nationally recognized performance shop in Denver is now working at Vestas because it brings in the dough. It will be years (if it ever does) before there is a recession in that field.

Yup, it is true, and journalism or .com webites don't always speak the truth.
Take a drive through the midwest and youll see new wind mills being hauled in by the dozens.

And if you like the wind in your hair (and you don't want to take the half cab off)..........................................................................

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

I could go on and on with facts etc but I agree with Dan on this one..........

Wind Power is a feel good fad incentivized by the govt. When the tax breaks disappear, and the grid infrastructure connecting these wind farms to the main power grid still hasn't been put in place..........the business will drop off.

Colorado will end up with some very large empty factories in Windsor and Pueblo.

I guess we will enjoy the temporary benefit of these jobs but even that seems hollow.

So all of those windmills being installed all over the ranchers lands do not work?
I have followed elections since I was just a child and President Ford was elected. I was too young to understand Nixons era but the education system taught us he was a bad evil person. I learned that he was actually a great president that did amazing things for the US but got caught doing something he shouldnt have been involved with. I lived through the Carter and Regan admin. then served under Bush SR who scared the crap out of all of us, then watched Clinton literally set the bubble on fire that bursted during Bush II admin (who jacked everything up with the bail out plan) which was started possibly by Carter or earlier. All of these Republicants and Democraps have made me look elsewhere. Every major industry is in bed with the White house administration. They all want the funding to develop better programs. If the funds werent wasted away on so many other things like classy prisons and bailing out banks and and and... anyway I can go on and on and on for hours on that.
Here is some more tax dollars being pissed away. Magnetic transportation is another great idea.
http://news.yahoo.com/navy-railgun-test ... 03095.html

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/02/28/ge ... -sex-life/
“Without insurance coverage, contraception, as you know, can cost a woman over $3,000 during law school,” Fluke told the hearing.
dont know the whole story but this is pathetic and amusing. I need to meet a cute law student.

Here is some more good use of our tax dollars. LOL

Tax Breaks for Mustaches
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washin ... acial-hair

Dagnabbit, I thought I could slip off to Maine unnoticed to get in this action !

I drove two 2012 VW Passats at lunch today. Drove the 2.5L Gas and the TDI (140 HP/270 TQ) - the TDI is definitely intriguing with speed, power, torque, quiet, no smoke, and mileage around 45+. Very nice car and is definitely making me contemplate getting the $2,200 TDI in my next VW.

We had an '06 Jetta TDI for three years while living in TX. For what we needed, it was GREAT. We traded it in with about 43k on the clock and we were starting to gain mileage since the motor was breaking in. I don't recall now what our best MPG's were, but I think it was 43MPG on mixed city/highway. Wish we could have afforded to keep it. It was one of their top packages (II as IIRC) so it had leather heated seats, Sat radio, nice speakers, etc. There is just something magical that happens when you press the gas and hear the whine of a turbo!

The TDIs are sweet. I've always been baffled by people's reluctance to drive diesels. I don't think most folks get how much fun that much torque is.