EFI Swap Emissions Disaster - Help, Ideas???

[BFD305]

So, here is another chapter in our Bronco EFI swap on our 1976.

We have finished things up and head over to get an E-test. We just got the Air Colorado program in Greeley November 10th. We ended up failing the visual for no air pump. Plus we barely failed on the HC level at idle. I went home and rigged up a smog pump, increased the idle a bit. We went in for our retest. This time we were failed due to an engine swap and sent to set up an appt with the state tech.

I got in talked to the tech and explained that I had done a EFI swap. He needed to know what vehicle everything was out of. I explained that the parts were from multiple vehicles but we retained the original block (which is not true either) he pulled some codes from the computer and decided it was an 85 computer, checkes for air pump, cat, O2 sensors and anything else that an 85 required. Signs me off on the visual and sends me to get retested. I figure no problem.

I failed the retest miserably. My VIN is now in the state computer as needing to meet 1985 emission standards.

The engine we used in a 1989, with speed density and are running the HO upper and lower from a Mark VII.

We are screwed. I am not even close to passing these new standards. This is my son Jonah's first car I have no idea what to do. My 2 possibilities are to just sell it AS-IS to someone outside an emission area, or put a carb engine back in, which after being reinspected will only need to meet 1976 standards again. This has turned into a nightmare!

[Entourage]

This really is sad because the law does not require the emmission testing for the 1975's and older - missed it by a year. PlumbDoctor is in the same boat (1976, EFI, etc.) and it is so unfair. I told Keith to buy a VIN to a 1966-1975 Bronco and title it under that VIN. I have seen Frames or Glove Boxes for sale with a VIN for $200.00. I am not a mechanic so that is the route I would go. I would rather spend the money on a VIN vs. restricting my motor, sensors, smog, catalytics, etc. with hopes that it would pass.

[plumbdoctor]

I sent you a pm, but forgot to add that everything you will need can come of just about any mid 80's to mid 90's Ford car/truck in the bone yards. If you need the emmissions pigtail (tab/tad. and egr) plugs, RJM sells one for 100 bucks. push in a couple pins and a couple of spices and your ready to run.

Sounds like they were a little nicer to you than me. I had every tech at the state looking at mine and deciding who was smarter! So I am just short of having to put OBDII technology in my truck.

Still a bit pissed about it, nut then again I guess I will have a tree to hug when this country turns into a giant ball of fire!

[plumbdoctor]

I was just looking at your truck in the members rigs, how long have you had it? Did you let the tags expire? I ask because if you owned it before 9/1/09 and had current tags on it, you fall in the grandfather rule like Roxcrusher and others. If you let the tags expire then you get to join on my fun!!!

[cobshane]

This is so stupid even though the emissions is probaly better than what it did before they still go by the standards of the year of the engine. does not make any sense to me. You get punished for making a vehicle more efficient. I would never consider those people techs, my 4 year old son knows more about vehicles than those tail pipe hose installers. They cant even keep within the lines on the accel. and decel. on there screen. man i have had my fun with them as well, can you tell!!!

well its hard to say without seeing a vehicle, but I would start with checking fuel pressure and make sure the regulator is operating. common problem for those years, get the spec for pressure and if its over the spec by 10-15 psi then replace regulator. i imagine full tune up has been done and timing is correct.

I would help you out, but your a little out of my range for a date night.

[Rox Crusher]

I was just looking at your truck in the members rigs, how long have you had it? Did you let the tags expire? I ask because if you owned it before 9/1/09 and had current tags on it, you fall in the grandfather rule like Roxcrusher and others. If you let the tags expire then you get to join on my fun!!!

I need to research this further................over the week-end somebody told me that there isn't a grandfather clause afterall and that when your collector tag expires you will be put back into the normal process which means that 76 and 77 model years would be required to pass annual emissions tests (and possibly a visual inspection).

I think the way to beat the inspection is to go to their website and find the schedule for their mobile emission testing stations (this is the van you normally see on a freeway on-ramp) and drive past it two or three times. I believe the rules are that if you pass that test 3 times in a year then you aren't required to come in for emissions test / inspection.

There is a guy at the test / inspection station on Colorado that has an EB with EFI (don't know what year)...................I will try to look him up and see what he has to say.

Anyway, keep us posted. I am sure with some tuning you will get yours to pass the emissions test.

I just don't want to convert to EFI if it means more ars ache, especially if it is annual.

[ZOSO]

there is a grandfather clause. dont let your tags expire or sell it. i have collectors on my 79 and had to renew them in feb. no emmissions and no questions.

[BFD305]

Thanks guys. My tags did expire. The Bronco had engine issues so it has been sitting. My son Jonah decided he wanted it so I started the EFI swap. If there is any EFI guru on here that is willing to help us do some fine tuning we are more than willing to head that direction. I think there are some things that are not functioning perfect still. It starts and runs great, not throwing codes but does not seem to have the power on the top end I would expect.

[ZOSO]

Call my buddy Rob. He is a Ford tuning genius. 303-359-5029 Tell him Rob sent ya.

I know how you feel about the emissions. I'll be going through this again with my cobra in 2 months. Now for my 79 they didn't say crap to me about the 460 swap I did to mine. I even told them its a 460 swapped in.

[BFD305]

I think it is the EFI that causes the hang ups. Thanks, I will give him a call. I have a number for a guy in Windsor too.

[ZOSO]

Rob can tune it up. He tuned my buddies 825rwhp cobra and it passed emissions.

[BFD305]

For anyone considering an EFI swap, be factual when you get there. Determine what is the earliest year with that type of EFI and tell them that is what it is. Playing dumb may have worked a little for me, but at one point they considered calling it a 1993. The tech that do the inspection are not the same people administering the test. They are a separate group.

[crawlercreations]

Do you have you numbers as to what failed and by how much handy? If so post them up! I have a little trick to help. Also, did you go to the standard state emissions facilities? I know a place in Wheat Ridge that probably wouldn't even think twice about emissions required equipment on you bronco. He passed my buddies Monarch after watching it burn enough oil during the e-test to cause his shop to fill with smoke. That was a few years ago so i am not sure if the little places that do 1982 and older vehicles are even allowed to operate anymore.

Back to point....Post up your numbers and limits please!

[BFD305]

HC 196.8@2500 RPM 432.7@Idle Limits 220
CO 0.31@2500 RPM 1.27@Idle Limits 1.20

The tech called today to confirm I need to meet 1985 standards and that he had made a mistake and I need to add a 3-way cat and an updated smog system. He asked that I come by so he can update my state form DR 2365. What a joke.

[crawlercreations]

Sounds like those guys have no idea what standards you need to meet! A 3 way converter is just about all you can get, if not the only thing you can get so there shouldn't be any need to change what you were told originally.

My suggestion(and this is completely off the record): If you want to at least get it to pass emissions then get it tuned when you get a chance.......Dump some 90% rubbing alcohol in the gas tank. Get one of the big bottles. I would use 1 big bottle for 16 gallons of gas. Run it a bit so the alcohol has a chance to work into the system fully then test it. As long as it passes visual it should pass tailpipe too! The alcohol will not hurt anything in the system. The alcohol basically causes the engine to run a little leaner and not be detected by the O2 sensors. This way the O2 sensors don't try to tell the computer to compensate for the lean condition. I have used this for years and it has yet to fail me. Word of caution...don't use too much as you will fail for high Nox then!

[BFD305]

The difference with the cat is that yesterday they said my original cat was enough, now I need something different. There just doesn't seem to be a right answer. i had read the alcohol trick on line, may have to try it. I am going to take it to a place and just see if they think I have everything right. Yesterday Jonah thought i was to the point of selling it. We both have too much time and $$ invested, we need to get it done. Thanks for the input.

[777mechanic]

buy a junk bronco with a good title and put the glove on yours and scrap the other with the 76 title . just don't ask for a glove box and title on classicbronco.com they'll eat you alive . may ask melissa at bronco hut if she has older titles .

[777mechanic]

had to post again because the way i read the emissions they can only test for 76 emission and what was on there originally , which if i'm correct was a air pump it should matter if you put an svt out of a 2004 you only have to meet the standards of the 76 . i injected my 73 and have no intension of letting them open my hood because there was nothing on that year . i think i'd go back and fight to have it left as a 76 emissions .

[ZOSO]

had to post again because the way i read the emissions they can only test for 76 emission and what was on there originally , which if i'm correct was a air pump it should matter if you put an svt out of a 2004 you only have to meet the standards of the 76 . i injected my 73 and have no intension of letting them open my hood because there was nothing on that year . i think i'd go back and fight to have it left as a 76 emissions .

This is what I was told also. You have to meet the standards of the vehicle not the engine. The 460 that was in my bronco was out of a 76 truck. Which means no emissions equipment what-so ever. But since it went in my 79 bronco it had to meet the 79 standards.

[BFD305]

That is what I thought too. And I was also in the belief that i will fight this. If I was using a 76 block I think I would have some grounds based on the EFI is not the engine the block is. But what it comes down to is there is very little you can do. Here is the wording from the Air Care Colorado site:
"Strictly speaking, engine changes are a violation of federal emissions tampering laws, if a professional shop for hire performs them. The Air Care Colorado Program has always realized that people are going to change engines; and this swap was performed by the owner on his own vehicle. Our policy states that any vehicle with an engine change will be inspected according to the model year of the body/chassis (as titled) or the engine configuration, whichever is newer. This applies to the tailpipe emissions limits as well as the visual inspection for emissions equipment. Contact your Emissions Technical Center for more information on engine change policies. "

[BFD305]

Here is the law out of the Colorado Code.
CCR 204-11-407
CCR 204-11-209

(407.0) ENGINE CHANGE:
1421196 (a) FOR THOSE VEHICLES IN WHICH THE ORIGINAL ENGINE HAS BEEN REPLACED, THE EMISSION LIMITS AND APPLICABLE EMISSIONS CONTROL EQUIPMENT FOR THE YEAR AND MODEL OF THE VEHICLE BODY AND CHASSIS, AS PER REGISTRATION AND TITLE OR REPLACEMENT ENGINE, WHICHEVER IS NEWEST SHALL APPLY. FOR THOSE DIESEL-POWERED VEHICLES WHICH HAVE BEEN CONVERTED TO OPERATE ON FUELS OTHER THAN DIESEL, THE EMISSIONS LIMITS AND APPLICABLE EMISSIONS CONTROL EQUIPMENT FOR THE YEAR, MAKE, AND MODEL OF THE GASOLINE-POWERED ENGINE EQUIVALENT AS ORIGINALLY MANUFACTURED FOR THE VEHICLE BODY AND CHASSIS PER THE REGISTRATION OR REPLACEMENT ENGINE, WHICHEVER IS NEWEST, SHALL APPLY AS DETERMINED BY THE EMISSIONS TECHNICAL CENTER PERSONNEL OR DESIGNEE AND SPECIFIED ON AN OFFICIAL EMISSIONS PROGRAM VEHICLE EVALUATION FORM DR 2365.

1421197 (b) FOR 1975 AND NEWER VEHICLES IN WHICH THE ORIGINAL ENGINE HAS BEEN REPLACED, IF EITHER THE VEHICLE BODY OR CHASSIS OR ORIGINAL ENGINE, AS PER REGISTRATION AND TITLE OR REPLACEMENT ENGINE AS MANUFACTURED HAD A CATALYTIC CONVERTER SYSTEM, AIR INJECTION REACTION SYSTEM, MICROPROCESSOR BASED AIR AND FUEL CONTROL SYSTEM, AND FUEL FILLER NECK RESTRICTORS, THESE EMISSIONS CONTROL SYSTEMS MUST BE PRESENT, INTACT, AND OPERATIONAL BEFORE A CERTIFICATE OF EMISSIONS CONTROL MAY BE ISSUED.


(209.0) ENGINE CHANGES:
1420918 (a) FOR THOSE VEHICLES OF MODEL YEARS 1974 AND OLDER IN WHICH THE ORIGINAL ENGINE HAS BEEN REPLACED, THE EMISSIONS LIMITS FOR THE YEAR OF THE VEHICLE BODY OR CHASSIS, AS PER REGISTRATION OR TITLE SHALL APPLY.

1420919 (b) FOR THOSE VEHICLES OF MODEL YEARS 1975 AND NEWER IN WHICH THE ORIGINAL ENGINE HAS BEEN REPLACED, THE VISUAL INSPECTION FOR APPLICABLE EMISSIONS CONTROL EQUIPMENT SHALL BE CONDUCTED AS INDICATED BY THE DR 2365 ISSUED BY A STATE OPERATED TECHNICAL CENTER.

1420920 (c) IF A DR 2365 IS NOT PRESENTED AT THE TIME OF THE INSPECTION, THE MECHANIC OR INSPECTOR MUST ENTER “FAIL” INTO THE ANALYZER FOR ALL EMISSIONS CONTROL SYSTEMS AND THEN REFER THE VEHICLE TO A STATE OPERATED EMISSIONS TECHNICAL CENTER TO OBTAIN ONE.

[akaFrankCastle]

Keep your title and VIN. Disconnect your EFI wiring, drop in a carb'd 302, pass your emissions (according to 1976 standards), get your tags, and then drop your EFI motor back in.

You can play the title/glovebox shell game if you want. If someone gets wise to the fact that your VIN has been swapped and does what any competent law enforcement officer would, checks your frame, you're screwed.

Is there any mention in the wording about having to get a new emissions test after updating or reconfiguring the engine, if you already have tags?

Take that spare carb'd 302 you have now, clean it up real good, stroke it, inject it, and drop it in to Dad's new Bronco.

[BFD305]

I need to do this emissions test annually, so that is not going to work. I am going to take it to a shop that knows everything on the 5.0 and he says we will get it running better and pass no problem. I hope so.

The title swap is a huge one if you get caught. Not interested in breaking the law to get around it, plus if my son were to wreck it it would also be insurance fraud.

[akaFrankCastle]

Annual requirement apply to Collector tagged trucks too?

[BFD305]

No. My collectors tags expired several years ago and can not get them for a 76 again. For now anyway.

[plumbdoctor]

Do you have you numbers as to what failed and by how much handy? If so post them up! I have a little trick to help. Also, did you go to the standard state emissions facilities? I know a place in Wheat Ridge that probably wouldn't even think twice about emissions required equipment on you bronco. He passed my buddies Monarch after watching it burn enough oil during the e-test to cause his shop to fill with smoke. That was a few years ago so i am not sure if the little places that do 1982 and older vehicles are even allowed to operate anymore.

Back to point....Post up your numbers and limits please!

That is the guy that did my origional test. He has closed since then, but could not give me the paperwork cause he did not want to get fined for passing an "altered vehicle".

[777mechanic]

well if they say it goes by efi , what if your using after market efi it has no date some have there own computers . as goes for fraud by changing glove box and not frame , what if you frame is trashed and the new one is from an older truck . most people such as law enforcement have no idea that the tiltle no# are stamped on the frame , the no# are also stamped in different places . i have seen people who's frames are trashed cut out and rewelded vin plate in frame so is this honest or not ? phil and i have seen a couple broncos in denver area that are for sell with 2 vins one on frame and one on glove box so which one do you use ?

[plumbdoctor]

I have heard that the glove box plate is technically not a vin plate?? just an info tag ( build tag) so who knows

[BFD305]

I do know a fair amount on this from dealing with it with motorcycles.
It is illegal, a federal offense, to alter or modify a vin in any way. Any law enforcement that is good at there job knows all frames produced after the 50's or so is stamped with the vin # in the frame. It is illegal to weld another one in, even if if came from your previous frame. Thate is what a state assigned VIN is for. Swapping the glove box and title for emission reasons would also violate federal emissions standards. Will you get caught, or will a cop check the vin on the frame? Probably not. But if anything ever happened that required a VIN inspection or someone to check, your vehicle will most likely be impounded. If you find one with 2 VIN's don't buy it without 2 titles to get it all straightened out.
As for the EFI, aftermarket systems need to be C.A.R.B. approved and have supporting documentation to be used legally on a vehicle. If the system is CARB approved they will determine what is needed for a test. I have definitely learned a lot in the last week. And yes, I think it is total crap I am just trying to relay info that is important if you get screwed like a few of us have.

[akaFrankCastle]

Plumb is correct. In most cases the tag in the glovebox is known as a warranty tag. There are HUGE pissing matches that have occurred over on CB.com about just that subject.

Aside from the issue of legal issues with swapping in a new glovebox tag and title as it applies to law enforcement, there is another aspect to consider. Ownership of your sold title and glovebox tag and your new GB tag and title.

There is a thread over on CB.com where a guy is in the middle of an ownership battle at the moment. His old tub wound up at an auto shop who then applied for a title. The title was granted, based on the GB tag VIN. When the guy went to title his project after it was built, he finds out it is under a lein by the autoshop that purchased the tub. I might have butchered that story a bit, but you get the point.

BFD is spot on with the state assigned VIN. It is the responsibility of the state to make a determination on the best course of action in the event of a damaged frame and the status of the VIN, not the owner.

NOT MY OPINIONS. Just playing Devil's advocate here.