I'm thinking about putting together a trip for next summer and wanted to gauge the general level of interest before putting a bunch of work into mapping it. It would be a drive from the Denver metro area to someplace west, with a goal of doing it all on dirt. We'd have the option of doing some of the 4x4 trails along the way, but the main goal would be to make it from Denver to, say, Vail, Crested Butte, Durango or Grand Junction (with a side trip to Moab?) without ever touching pavement other than to refuel. It'd give us a chance to see some of the most remote and rarely traveled areas of the Colorado high country and have an experience that could reflect some of the best Colorado has to offer. What do you all think? Sound interesting? Suggestions for routes or destinations? Would this be better as a long weekend or a week-long trip?

I think it would be a cool trip. And I would certainly be interested in going a long.

Justin - you know I'm in, I was just thinking about posting up the same idea. I was thinking of a week long trip to really get into the groove, but it may be hard or some folks that don't have that kind of vaca time. This is one of the reasons I built my trailer and I'd love to kit it out for a real off the grid trip, so I'm with you and the mapping part, I'll start poking around for trail ideas. There seems to be quite a few passes that we could link up and try to do a loop of some sort. One word of caution - don't call it an "Expo" since I believe this will bring on the wrath of Zilla!

One cool thing, if it is a week long trip with a good itinerary, folks could meet up somewhere mid week or for the first and last weekend. I like it. And I like the loop idea as well. I think leaving Denver and heading north through the steamboat, Craig, then south through Grand Junction, Aspen, Durango / 4-corners area, back east through Alamosa and finally back up through the front range would be awesome. A long trip, but over 7-9 days, (A week including 2 weekends) would be awesome. It might have to be a 2 part trip though, say a northern loop, then a southern loop the following year. I think with 2 per rig and back packing/light weight camping gear I could do it in the bronco without a support rig or trailer.

I'm wondering if doing a shorter trip for the first one to try it out, then extending it to a week or more in the future might not be a bad way to go. I'll certainly have an easier time making this happen if my wife isn't having to do a week on her own. After tinkering around with Google maps, it looks like going from Denver up to Vail, through Leadville, Salida and Colorado Springs would be 364 miles on roads. I'm also assuming that we'll be lucky to average 15 mph on dirt roads, so we're looking at 4-5 days just to make that loop if we do long days (which would make it tough to take kids, which would make it tougher for lots of us to go). It might not be a bad idea to start somewhere farther north for the Greeley/Loveland guys, then loop back through the Springs, making it easier to include everyone in some way. The more I look at Google maps the more I suspect that we'll have a really tough time doing this mostly on dirt. The vast majority of those little tiny lines just run up into the hills and dead-end. The other major issue is going to be finding ways on dirt around the various wilderness areas, as there are a whole bunch of them immediately west of Denver. I might need to go down to REI and pick up a bunch of their paper maps and turn my living room into one giant map since most of the online mapping services don't have all the dirt roads and 4x4 trails on them. Anyone know of good online resources or software that does a better job with this stuff?

Great excuse to build an Overland Trailer.

This would be an interesting trip. I have started planning a trip to Alaska in two years. I am planning on trailering the Bronco up thru Canada then spending the rest of the time driving around. I have the wife and both sons talked into going along at different points so they do not/won't have to spend a whole month gone from home.

I would be interested in a couple of days thru Colorado so I could work the bugs out. Jayson

Software wise you could look into the Nat'l Geographic Topo! series. Digital versions of the same Topo maps you'd pick up at REI. DeLorme has some really good Topo software as well. There may be some versions specifically centered around 4x4 trails out there as well.

I think it's a cool idea! The southern part of the state would be easier to obtain your goal of little pavement travel simply due to the smaller population. Up North is going to be tougher, but I think you could do a pretty good job. You might link up with Charles Wells, the guy who writes the backcountry books. People like my grandpa (s) would be good help for the SOCO stuff, but so much has changed since they rode horses in the mountains up there and there is the memory thing...

Online sources for trails are
www.traildamage.com (lists nearby trails)
www.4x4trails.net (multiple ways to search for trails)

J.D.

I _might_ be able to talk my wife into letting me take my son, but the baby would probably stay home. He'd only be going if we were doing trails that posed minimal safety risk, especially since I don't have a cage yet. I'll keep doing some looking and see what I can find for a route.

Depending on your family, and on the trip plan, a trip like this may not be ideal for the whole family. Very young children are not going to appreciate spending most of the day in the back seat. Especially if there is gear packed tight all around them.

As far as gear and space are concerned, I often hunt late season in the south san juan wilderness. These are back pack trips of 5-7 days carying everything I am going to need. If I can make a trip like that happen, I most certainly can make a trip where daily or every other day fuel runs are going to be needed. And one other options would be to send someone ahead in a scout truck/support rig. Maybe pulling a trailer with everyone gear etc in it, taking the highways and meeting us at our planned camp sites

Still working on the mapping. For those of you who are interested, would you prefer more hardcore trails and more pavement to make up the slow time, or easier/more family friendly trails and more dirt time?

I say more dirt is better. You might have to put a limit on the trail hardness though. One disabled vehicle 20 miles from parts is very different than all disabled vehicles 20 miles from parts.

BTW I've got a Garmin Mapsource file with most of Colorados trails on it.

I agree with Viper - the more dirt the better. And limiting trail difficulty to something most of us with less well prepped rigs can do would be nice too. Save the harder stuff for those "Calling all big dogs" trail runs. Scenic, some moderate stuff, but not so difficult that 35's and lockers are required, expect body damage - kind of stuff. My boys will find the tough stuff anywhere any way.

More dirt = more fun, I love to find out what my truck can do but I'm with everyone else and saving the harder stuff for single day runs. I'd set the max rating at a 3 or so, that way a rig w/ smaller tires will have no problems. I guess it comes down to the intent of the outing, if the plan is multi-day w/ medium milage then it would need to be smooth going, but if the trip is for a long weekend then some harder trails could be put in. I'd also recommend that the milage b/t small towns w/ fuel be considered. A bronco w/ stock fuel capacity getting 10'ish mpg will need to fuel every 200 miles or so. Of course we could supplement that w/ fuel cans and some trucks have larger tanks.

Yes, an "overlanding" vehicle is not something modified to tackle the tougher trails, so an overlanding trip should entail easier scenic routes. Something a guy could pull a small trailer thru as a lot of those guys have such a trailer.

J.D.

OK pencil my fam of four in for a mot to agressive, family friendly trails type of run over the course of 3-4 days.

I am in the process of designing my offroad trailer as I type this and am thinking of repoing my 4x6 trailer I lent out about 10 years ago to modify for this type of trip. if things get scheduled then i will have a date where it has to be functional by, if not it could take no less than 5 years to finish something like that.

Agree with the posts of most about range for fuel and fetching parts etc

also keeping the trails relatively mild will theoreticaly keep damage to a minimum, and more enjoyable by more folks with less than gnarly setups.

Cool, sounds like consensus. This may be a bit tough to do in some areas, but I'll do my best to keep things mellow. I'm planning to pick up a copy of the Topo! software, as paper maps are way too much of a pain for a trip this long. For some of this we may just wind up winging it, but I'd like to try and have a game plan for as much as possible, especially if people are bringing kids.

Next question-Do you all want me to try and find planned camping spots for each night so that significant others and families can meet up with us, or do we want to make this a 100% backcountry experience? My vote is for 100% backcountry, but I'm open to mob rule if you all want to go for something more predictable.

Sounds like a great idea. I would definitely be interested.

Did Louis and Clarke camp at the KOA when they drove their EB's to the Pacific? Did the 1849er's have pre-determined camping spots on their way to the gold fields? No, they winged it.

The mental picture of L&C driving their EBs to the Pacific is epic.

I promise no KOAs. God forbid. The idea gives me cold sweats.

I too agree with the no predetermined camp spots.
Yes it might be nice to have that set up so others could show up, but think if a truck has a mechanical, youd hate have half the group leave just simply because they had to get to spot X cause that is where thier gear was, with waiting family.
this way the group would stay as that a group.

Maybe have a guesstimate for daily goals so if it worked out then fine but if not then oh well.

OK, after much dinking around with Google Maps, Trail Damage, and Google Earth I've got an idea for a route. It has more road that I'd originally hoped, but covers a ton of really interesting area. I think the toughest part of the route is Kingston peak, but there could be areas around Montezuma that are tougher. I've wheeled that area some and there are some amazing trails above treeline in the area that I'd really like to incorporate. The basic instructions are:

1. Meet in Park Meadows area
2. Drive to Sedailia, take hwy 67 to Rampart Range road (pavement)
3. Rampart Range Road to Garden of the gods (Dirt)
4. Old Stage road to Gold Camp Road to CO rd 81 to Cripple Creek (Dirt)
5. Pavement to Divide
6. Rule Creek trail or Manchester Creek Rd (Dirt)
7. Co rd 33 to W 9-J Rd past Cheesman Lake to F Road 560/Stoney Pass rd. to Bailey (not sure, probably at least some dirt)
8. Bailey to Fairplay on 285 (pavement)
9. Over Mosquito Pass to Leadville (dirt, utterly epic-highest vehicle traversable pass in the USA)
10. Leadville to Wuritz Ditch Rd via hwy 24 (probably mostly dirt)
12. Hwy 24 to Red Cliff (pavement)
13. Shrine Pass Rd to I-70 to Breckenridge (dirt)
14. Trail to Wise Mine Cabin-camping spot? (dirt-stunning, significant portions above treeline)
15. Random trails to Montezuma (dirt)
16 Montezuma Rd to Keystone (pavement)
17. Hwy 6 to I-70 to Empire or Downieville with possible dirt to Alice (mostly pavement)
18. Over Kingston Peak Trail to Rollinsville (dirt, above treeline for much of it)
19. Rollinsville to a little north of Nederland (6 miles? of pavement)
20. Switzerland trail to Boulder (dirt/pavement mix)

It's a pretty ambitious route, and I'm guessing we'd be looking at a week long trip when you figure in the altitude, carburetors and 40 year old vehicles. People who wanted to just do parts of it could easily cut out at the many points we'll hit the road and head back. I had wanted to route this farther north on dirt, but Rocky Mountain National Park makes that really tough, and it would be a lot of driving to go north of it. A shorter route that would not include Mosquito pass would be to take Georgia pass to the trails that would go to Montezuma, but I thought that having Mosquito pass in there was really neat and would also allow us to go over Shrine pass. The up side of doing the Georgia pass route would be less pavement (I think). Cutting out the leg down to the Springs is another option that would save mileage, but the roads down there look like they're really pretty and the terrain and scenery is different. I've attached a Google Map link below. Google Maps is really bad at doing dirt roads, so the track is far from accurate. It screws up the areas around Leadville and Gold Camp Road and the trails around Montezuma don't exist. I think the total mileage is somewhere in the 350 mile range, but I'm not sure. 100 or less of that would be pavement (again, I think). This is highly subject to change until I get some more topo info, as there may be other trails I'm not aware of. Feel free to suggest trails that I didn't include or routes you think are work exploring.

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=I-25+ ... 8&t=m&z=11

Man, you have been working hard! Nice job! You might put in there where you expect to camp. This appears to be a solid week long trip without much downtime. You'd probably have to set a rigid schedule daily too, as in, on the road by 9am etc..

I am sure you know most of the routes, but just wanted to offer my experience on the ones I have traveled.
3. RRR, easy dirt, lots and lots of washboards and dust.
4. Old Stage, climbs hard, generally hard on cooling systems, but once you top out, it's nice. LOTS of washboards and dust there too.
9. Mosquito - Lots of fun, not real hard, but rocky and rough.
12. You could cross camp hale here and run Resolution Mtn, Ptarmigan Pass (or McCallister gulch) to connect to Shrine Pass. Ran Ptarmigan over the weekend in my superduty and that was not a lot of fun as the trail is very tight and I now have a lot of paint to polish out scratches. I do not know the condition of McCallister, but Charles wells said it was the tight one. Also on Ptarmigan, the North side is the narrow one and there are few places to bypass other vehicles, so meeting someone is bad enough, with a large group in tow is difficult at best. But being mid-week, you may not see anyone??

Sounds like a lot of fun!! I hope you get to do this!

J.D.

So with the high country routes planned, we are looking at a mid - late summer trip then? And I agree with Viper - back country, dispersed camping only. If you need a bath, we will toss you in the creek!

Looks like I need to be planning a rally rack, gas can addition to the rear bumper. Yet one more winter project. Cool!

Don't forget the gun rack. Ain't no Safeways up there. Small game and turkey season starts Sep-Oct.

You can't beat fresh grouse roasted over the camp fire.

I'm thinking the last weekend in August/First weekend in September merging into labor day weekend. That'd give us a little extra wiggle room if the trip takes longer than planned. It'd also get us up there with the most snow melted but before the first snows start to stick around. I was up in the area above Breckenridge a couple of years ago over 4th of July and several of the higher trails were still heavily snowed in. Haven't touched base with the wife about yet but I think a years notice is pretty fair. I don't see gas being an issue on this, as there are several towns on the way. I'm figuring if we all gas up at each town (within reason) we should be fine. I'll likely add a can carrier, but may use it to carry water instead.

Jesus, thanks for the advice re: routes. I've done a bunch of the area around Breckenridge and Montezuma, but haven't done any of the stretch between the Springs and Breckenridge, so feedback is really helpful. I've done a lot of reading guides and online, but they rarely tell the whole story. RRR seemed like a good way to cover some mileage at a reasonably rapid pace and Old Stage road sounds really beautiful. Again, Mosquito pass may be over-ambitious depending on everyone's availability and desire to do a longer trip. Re: Ptarmigan, I thought about it. Shrine looks like an easier trail overall and a better way to make time based on what I was reading. Definitely a consideration, though as it would add in more dirt time.

Also, I was thinking about either writing up an article about the trip for Bronco Driver or one of the major 4x4 mags. We could also give them a heads up and let them send someone out for part or all of the trip, depending.

Gold Camp is a good way to stay on the dirt and it's a neat little drive, but not all that pretty as you'll see on designated "trails".

That area near Camp Hale is beautiful and has some nice camping spots. We just camped at the corner of No Name and hwy 24. It was a large open spot. Only downside is that it is right on the highway and there was no creek.

There is a small creek that runs thru Camp Hale and has lots of trout in it. 10" +/-. There is also camping in camp hale, but as I understand it, you could get a ticket because there could be unexploded ordinance there. Something to check into, but I saw several really nice spots inside the camp that are much further off the road and the creek is right there. Also quite a few larger spots as you head up Homestake road towards Holy Cross. We camped 6 miles in a few weeks ago and that spot would support quite a few rigs.

The short piece of Shrine that I did was full of pot holes.